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RE: Pressing a button in linux is too complicated
by Brian Densmore 14 Jan '05

14 Jan '05

> -----Original Message----- > From: jeffslists > > I had to laugh when I started to read the thread "unmounting > a volume" > This complicated button reminds me of a very short story, "King's > Advisors and the Toaster" > (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6271/compu034.html) > In this > story an engineer and a computer scientist are asked to design a > toaster. > ... > > In windows or any other sane desktop operating system if I > want to open > my cd-rom drive I press a button and it always opens, unless > I'm burning > a cd, and even then getting the drive to open is no problem. > But with > all linux distros, AFAIK, pressing a button can be very > complicated. In > order to get my cd I have to search through processes using > 'ps' and try > to determine what process is locking my drive. What a total waste of > time. Even though I have a B.S. in computer science I don't care to > waste my time searching through processes in order to > retrieve my cd. My thoughts on the ease of use of Linux and devices, versus Windows. 1) Windows doesn't always allow you to eject a cd, even if it is only CDROM drive. I have constant problems with the older CDROM on my office PC. Sometimes, it will take in a cd and then the entire CDROM will disappear from the filemanager. And if I ask it why, it says something like 'there is no CDROM on the computer, please reboot'. 2) Windows will sometimes annoyingly run anything I insert into my cdrom, even if I've just taken the CD out and reinserted it to get the software key off of it, without asking me first. 3) I generally do not have any problems using a CD or DVD on my Linux desktop. If I insert a CD all I do is click on an icon and "presto chango" the cd mounts and opens up a file manager or starts xine or plays the music on it. Actually that last statement isn't strictly true, because it autodetects and plays music CDs. 4) occasionally, I will come across a rogue application that locks the CD and I have to ps search it out and kill it. 5) Occasionally a rogue windows program will lock the CD and refuse to release it and refuse to allow me to find the culprit and kill it. Forcing me to reboot or at the least log off and back on to free it up. 6) The problem with Linux ease of use is the all too frequent spreading of Linux Usability Myths. JMHO, Brian Densmore

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Re: Pressing a button in Linux is too complicated
by Brian Kelsay 14 Jan '05

14 Jan '05

I have a little adapter, that can be had for a few bucks, that allows me to put a laptop HDD in a desktop PC. Helps for transferring files to/from a laptop without network, damaged network stack, missing a driver, no floppy or CD, dead LCD screen, etc. 40-pin IDE to 44-pin laptop HDD connector. http://www.cablesonline.com/44pinto40pin.html Brian Kelsay >>> Jonathan Hutchins <hutchins(a)tarcanfel.org> 01/14/05 09:39AM In order to give it to Hal, I have to wipe the hard disk. In order to wipe the hard disk, I use a floppy. My wife's laptop doesn't even have a USB port, I think booting to a CD on a PCMCIA adapter would be unlikely. (Fortunately her CD drive still works.) Sigh. Some people have too much money to spend on toys.

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Re: Pressing a button in Linux is too complicated
by Brian Kelsay 14 Jan '05

14 Jan '05

The reason the conversation was complicated and required crawling the process tree was that Duane was using some experimental software. It was unknown what was locking the process. This is something he will have to battle if he wants to live on the edge. In order to streamline the OS, all drives are treated the same. You can't pull a hotswap SCSI or eject a CD until it is unmounted. You definitely don't want to eject a CD-R when you are in the middle of burning, so the burning process locks the drive. If you remove a USB HDD or flash drive without unmounting, you risk data loss or corruption. Sounds reasonable to me. So that's why, let's look at how. On Knoppix, Mepis, DamnSmall, Mandrake, Redhat, hell all current desktop distros I have loaded in recent memory, if you are in X, you most likely will have an icon on the desktop that looks like a drive. Right click on it and you can mount and unmount to your hearts content. Left click or double click, depending on how your GUI environment is configed, and you mount and open a file browser in the same motion. Dead easy. Knoppix has an extra wrinkle to get write access to the drive so you don't accidentally fubar the drive, but that is another discussion. There has to be an easier way. For any complicated system that the computer scientists give us, some kind programmer will come along and simplify the process for the average user. Probably when they get tired of giving complicated answers to seemingly simple problems. Lucky for me, I also know how to type the mount and unmount commands. At least we don't have to drag the drive to the trashcan. Whatever Apple weirdo thought that was good interface design should be shot. To me that says, "I'm going to throw out your data now." relevant snips included. Brian Kelsay >>> jeffslists <> 01/13/05 01:21AM >>> I had to laugh when I started to read the thread "unmounting a volume" This complicated button reminds me of a very short story, "King's Advisors and the Toaster" <snip> It seems that no one on this list offered a good solution to unmounting the volume. I read solutions that would work in theory, but I didn't see anyone give an easy and fast solution that would always work. <snip> A while back I read that retrieving your cd can be really complicated because Linus wants the computer to be treated as a server and volumes must be unmounted safely. <snip> I didn't write this to complain I'm just making fun of Linux distros. Next time you can't get your cd out you should read the story about the King and the toaster and laugh like me. :) <snip>

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Re: Pressing a button in Linux is too complicated
by Brian Kelsay 14 Jan '05

14 Jan '05

The distros I mentioned create an icon on the desktop for each non-root partition not required at boot time. Windows (fat16/fat32/ntfs) partitions, USB devices, ext3 (/extra, /data), etc. Brian Kelsay >>> Jonathan Hutchins <> 01/13/05 02:56PM >>> There is also the argument about whether a "user" should be able to mount and umount filesystems, or if this privilage should be reserved to the root operator. To me, that's a non-question, it should be specific to a given filesystem. No, the user can't unmount "/". Yes, they can mount a CD or a network share to their userspace.

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RE: Fun upgrading libc (segmentation fault while going from stable to testing in Sun IPX)
by kurt＠verruckt.org 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

Mauricio You might take a look at this site. I talked with this guy when I was interested in getting my IPX up, but never got around to it. http://www.petrvz.net/ On his site, she shows that he got his kernel here http://sparclinux.mit.edu/sparc/ I'd be interested in hearing how it goes. Like I said, I've been wanting to get mine going. I just lack the time right now. Kurt -----Original Message----- From: Mauricio [mailto:supremedalek@hotpop.com] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 8:35 AM To: debian-sparc(a)lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Fun upgrading libc (segmentation fault while going from stable to testing in Sun IPX) Which kernel should I pick then? My current kernel is 2.2.20 (whatever came with when I installed stable/woody): --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.832 / Virus Database: 566 - Release Date: 1/10/2005

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best eye candy for linux
by jeffslists 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

Hi, I'm developing speech control jukeboxes and I'm using linux for one of the systems. I'm looking for the window manager with the best eye candy. As far as I know Enlightenment (http://enlightenment.org) has the best eye candy I have seen. This window manager is a work of art. Does anyone know of any window manager as pretty as Enlightenment? thanks, Jeff

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RE: unmounting a volume
by Brian Densmore 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

FYI: 2.6 is not a development kernel, per definition. 2.6 is the current "stable" kernel and 2.4 is the "deprecated" (or whatever they call it) kernel. I've had no major issues with 2.6, but not something I would use on a production machine. IIRC, there is no current development kernel? There is no 2.7 right? Any ideas when if they are going to begin work on the next development kernel? Or are they just going to keep tweaking 2.6 until it's really stable? Did they pull a Microsoft on us with 2.6? What's your /opinion? > -----Original Message----- > From: Duane Attaway > > On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Brian Kelsay wrote: > > > What kernel are you running? Is it a 2.6? I still use 2.4 > series and ... > > > I was running 2.6.9 and am currently using 2.4.28 on my gentoo system > while I enjoy my USB mp3 player. I'm going to wait until 2.6 > becomes a > bit more mature as work is eating up most of my spare time.

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Pressing a button in linux is too complicated
by jeffslists 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

I had to laugh when I started to read the thread "unmounting a volume" This complicated button reminds me of a very short story, "King's Advisors and the Toaster" (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6271/compu034.html) In this story an engineer and a computer scientist are asked to design a toaster. Here is an excerpt: ----------------------------------------- Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a control knob, and a lever. "What do you think this is?" One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a toaster," he said. The king asked, "How would you design an embedded computer for it?" The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and quantifies its position to one of 6 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as an index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay, it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back next week and I'll show you a working prototype." The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few years." (snipped) "Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An Intel Pentium with 32MB of memory, a 500MB hard disk and 17inch SVGA monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multi-tasking, object-oriented language that supports multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a 4-bit microcontroller!)." The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded and they all lived happily ever after. ----------------------------------------- In windows or any other sane desktop operating system if I want to open my cd-rom drive I press a button and it always opens, unless I'm burning a cd, and even then getting the drive to open is no problem. But with all linux distros, AFAIK, pressing a button can be very complicated. In order to get my cd I have to search through processes using 'ps' and try to determine what process is locking my drive. What a total waste of time. Even though I have a B.S. in computer science I don't care to waste my time searching through processes in order to retrieve my cd. I have been using linux mostly as a server for over six years. It seems that no one on this list offered a good solution to unmounting the volume. I read solutions that would work in theory, but I didn't see anyone give an easy and fast solution that would always work. A while back I read that retrieving your cd can be really complicated because Linus wants the computer to be treated as a server and volumes must be unmounted safely. I read about someone arguing with him about this problem. I'm fuzzy one the details and I don't know where to find that information again so I guess you'll just have to look for your self to verify this. Linus is not perfect, but he is still one of my favorite software developers. It's too bad he has to make pressing a button so complicated. I didn't write this to complain I'm just making fun of linux distros. Next time you can't get your cd out you should read the story about the King and the toaster and laugh like me. :) -- "The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the power of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms-this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness... Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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Re: Pressing a button in Linux is too complicated
by Brian Kelsay 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

Losing what is in the RAM cache would still be data loss and covered by my comment. I have seen USB flash drives get corrupted by unplugging during data access. Even right here on this list. As you say, it would be nice if the CD-ROM drive button (CD-RW drive if a non-writeable media is inserted) would issue unmount and eject the disk. Don't know if anyone is working on this. I do recall a point where the feature was added to GUI filebrowsers and right-click menus to initiate a software eject command. Somebody thought it was important or annoying that we couldn't do that in Linux. Brian Kelsay >>> Jonathan Hutchins <> 01/13/05 11:40AM >>> On Thursday 13 January 2005 07:34 am, Brian Kelsay wrote: > In order to streamline the OS, all drives are treated the same. You can't > pull a hotswap SCSI or eject a CD until it is unmounted. You definitely > don't want to eject a CD-R when you are in the middle of burning, so the > burning process locks the drive. If you remove a USB HDD or flash drive > without unmounting, you risk data loss or corruption. This is pretty easy to understand if you do a little bit of work with a floppy, which _can_ be ejected while it's still mounted. <snip> Stick it back in the original machine, unmount it. Watch the blinkenlight. Oooh, that's it, it's writing the data from RAM cache to the disk! _That's_ why you have to unmount drives before you physically disconnect them!

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Re: Meeting time
by lerninlinux＠comcast.net 13 Jan '05

13 Jan '05

Microsoft Bob, Windows version 1, Dad's still functional Ibm XT, 8 bit soundblaster, Timex Sinclair 1000, Maybe grandpa's old printer (an attachment for a typewriter that hit the keys via signals sent to it via a serial cable), brothers old Atari 800 (even had a 300 baud modem), Green screen. Programing Punch cards. And I'm only 34 Scary what we could come up with if we all got together > So what do you use, old 386 laptop? IBM PS/2? Copy of Windows ME? AOL CDs? 1x > CD-ROMs? ARCNet equipment? Old MAUs and vampire taps? Roll of Thicknet? BASIC > (or name your obsolete language) programming book? Shares of Boo.com (or name > your defunct web company from the late 90s, early 2000s)? Copy of anything by > Jon Katz? > > What can the rest of you come up with? > > > > Brian Kelsay > > >>> "Monty J. Harder" <> 01/11/05 08:08PM >>> > > The problem with the back seat is that someone can see the laptop > bag, and do a smash-n-grab. I generally put my laptop in the trunk or > cover it with something that doesn't look like it's worth stealing. > > > _______________________________________________ > Kclug mailing list > Kclug(a)kclug.org > http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug

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