Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning OrphanWorksActof 2008

[Jon Pruente]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Jeffrey Watts
<jeffrey.w.watts at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't get what your anecdote about IHOP means.  So because you saw someone
> you _suspect_ was illegal simply because he didn't speak English (huh?)
> working at a job where he made minimum+ wages, then therefore illegals
> aren't doing low-paid work anywhere?

My point on their English is that they were recent, meaning they
obviously hadn't taken an ESL course to gain citizenship, or had been
here long enough to be under the Regan amnesty.  I know they were
illegal, it's not a guess on their handle of English, it was a point
on how fresh they were to this country.  The point i was responding to
was one of letting the illegals wwork the low paying jobs so they can
pay taxes, and also that they are working jobs regular Americans won't
do.  Both of which are false.

> I appreciate that you, through obvious keen deductive reasoning, have
> deduced someone's immigration status simply via their language abilities,
> but I think you fail to realize that just because you know two examples
> doesn't make your case typical.  The reality is that the garment industry
> (though not so much any more, as it moved overseas) and crop harvesting
> employ many, many illegal immigrants, and they usually aren't paid minimum
> wage.

So the arguments made about illegals working low paying jobs the
Americans don't want being false you seem to be supporting.  Why are
you arguing with me?

> As far as working two jobs go, apparently you've just had it easy in life.
> I worked two jobs (loaded trucks and worked at Pizza Hut) for five years
> while paying my way through college.  I also speak Spanish.  Hrm, does that
> make me an illegal immigrant?!

Where did I say I only work 1 job?  Why does that matter to the
argument of an illegal working more than one job that an American
could do, and as you point out, aren't low paying.  I am a citizen, I
have a right to work any or any number of jobs I choose.  An illegal
should not be working, period.

> You probably don't work on a fruit farm.  I don't either.  However, I happen
> to know that fruit picking is overwhelmingly done by illegal immigrants, as
> the pay is extremely low.  I also believe a lot of harvesting of other crops
> are done by "migrant workers", which are also poorly paid and is another way
> of saying "illegal immigrant".

So now you argue about low paying jobs done by illegals?

> Jeffrey.
>
> P.S.  Please learn to use paragraphs more or we might suspect you of being
> an illegal immigrant based upon your poor mastery of English...

Oh, a grammar nazi, too?  I had 3 distinct paragraphs.  One that
summarized points of "jobs we won't do," a second that recounted the
stats of the 2006 tax season, and a third that made statements about
fact vs opinion.  Where have I gone wrong in my use of the English
language oh sage master of communication? (Sarcasm.  Really, I don't
care.) Or are you trying to draw me into a troll about my skills of
English vs those of whom I was describing earlier?  Oh, wait, I've
been an Editor and published before.  Your bad.

> P.P.S.  I LOLed when you said "people like to hate the Bush tax cuts, but
> they are working."  How is it that they're "working"?  Are they _designed_
> to ruin the economy and bog us down in an unnecessary war?  Because if that
> was the plan, apparently they worked!

How did the tax cuts (that have brought more revenue to the treasury)
ruined the economy and done anything to the war?  Oh, we are in a
recession, is that the current economy scare line?  Is that it,
because just a week or so ago I heard that we had nearly 2% growth in
the last quarter.  A recession is defined as 2 consecutive quarters of
*negative* growth.

Jon.

>> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Phil Thayer <phil.thayer at vitalsite.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Well, I am sorry to hear that you have been laboring for so long below
>> > minimum wage.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If I live in a nice house and obviously have the means to help others,
>> > and
>> > there are people that come to my door for help, if I do not answer the
>> > door
>> > then I am being irresponsible.  It is not a bad thing to have money and
>> > be
>> > wealthy (relative to the countries we are discussing we are very
>> > wealthy),
>> > it is another thing to be responsible with that wealth and not use it
>> > for
>> > the betterment of others.  I don't understand people who feel so
>> > threatened
>> > by people from other countries coming over here to try and make a better
>> > life for their families back in their countries.   Personally, I admire
>> > them
>> > for having the courage to do what is necessary in life to try and give
>> > their
>> > kids a better life.  If they make the money here to send their kids to a
>> > better school, then maybe their kids will not be coming here to work but
>> > will be working in their own country.  Probably doing the jobs that we
>> > will
>> > not be able to do in the future because of the lowering of the
>> > educational
>> > systems here in the US.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Phil
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: James Sissel [mailto:jimsissel at yahoo.com]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:45 PM
>> > To: Phil Thayer
>> > Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning
>> > OrphanWorksActof 2008
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And have you ever worked one of "those" jobs?  I have for years and your
>> > arguments are very hollow. Let them stay in their own country and make
>> > their
>> > own contry better.  Just because you live in a shit house doesn't give
>> > you
>> > the right to break into my nice house and live there.
>> >
>> > Phil Thayer <phil.thayer at vitalsite.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I agree with you.  However, when the procedure to become legal becomes
>> > so
>> > cumbersome that a person's family may starve or otherwise not survive,
>> > then
>> > it becomes a necessity to them.  At the same time there are jobs here
>> > that
>> > due to the type of work it is and the pay scale nobody is willing to
>> > take
>> > except the people who are desperate enough to put their lives at risk to
>> > come here and work them.  The combination of these two elements mean one
>> > of
>> > two things will happen.  Either we will have a continuing influx of
>> > illegal
>> > aliens doing the work that nobody else wants to do or the jobs that
>> > nobody
>> > else wants to do will be moved overseas and everyone will be mad about
>> > jobs
>> > moving overseas.  At least of the illegal aliens are here in the US
>> > working
>> > they will be paying taxes just like we do.  If the jobs go overseas we
>> > will
>> > not have that tax revenue and all of our taxes will go up.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Phil
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: kclug-bounces at kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces at kclug.org] On Behalf
>> > Of
>> > Kelsay, Brian - Kansas City, MO
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:19 PM
>> > To: kclug at kclug.org
>> > Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning
>> > OrphanWorksActof 2008
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Not to be political, but the key part of the phrase is "illegal".   If a
>> > person is not in a country legally, then they should have a different
>> > set of
>> > expectations about how the society they've invaded will react to them.
>> >  An
>> > illegal alien from any country cannot expect to receive the same
>> > benefits as
>> > a legal immigrant or a natural citizen.   Por exemplo, I cannot go to
>> > Mexico
>> > for anything longer than a brief visit, although a visa may not be
>> > required.  And the US requires some proof of citizenship upon reentry.
>> > I
>> > can drive to Canada and visit briefly, but cannot work there without a
>> > work
>> > visa.   If I want medical care while I'm there, I believe it is
>> > emergency
>> > treatment only and I'd have to return to the states to get my insurance
>> > to
>> > cover procedures.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Follow the laws and its not such a bog deal.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Someday, we may be able to come and go between all countries and live
>> > and
>> > work where we please, crossing borders pell-mell, but for now there are
>> > many
>> > reasons for the laws in place in each country governing the comings and
>> > goings of people.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Brian Kelsay
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> > From: kclug-bounces at kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces at kclug.org] On Behalf
>> > Of
>> > Phil Thayer
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 2:09 PM
>> > To: watts at jayhawks.net; James Sissel
>> > Cc: kclug at kclug.org
>> > Subject: RE: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning Orphan
>> > WorksActof 2008
>> >
>> > Really?  The Mexicans wrote GNOME?  I didn't know that.  The comment
>> > about
>> > support for illegal aliens might be construed as racist but, I think it
>> > is
>> > just paranoia about losing a low paying job that nobody else in the US
>> > wants
>> > to do anyways.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: kclug-bounces at kclug.org [mailto:kclug-bounces at kclug.org] On Behalf
>> > Of
>> > Jeffrey Watts
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 1:52 PM
>> > To: James Sissel
>> > Cc: kclug at kclug.org
>> > Subject: Re: Reply from Congressman Emanuel Cleaver concerning Orphan
>> > WorksAct of 2008
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Espero que no usas GNOME, que fue escrito por los mexicanos, después de
>> > todo!
>> >
>> > Espero que algún día la gente pueda superar su racismo hacia hispanos.
>> >
>> > Jeffrey.
>> >
>> > P.S. By the way, this is a Linux list.  Just in case you've forgotten.
>> >  Good
>> > luck in November.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:05 AM, James Sissel <jimsissel at yahoo.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > I've emailed our esteemed Representative several times about various
>> > issues.  His support for illegal aliens, high gas prices and the
>> > Socialist
>> > (oops, Democrats) refusal to do anything, grand theft in the form of
>> > taxes
>> > that he supports and wants to increase, etc.  In my humble opinion he
>> > needs
>> > to be replaced during the next election.  The man was a horrible Mayor
>> > and
>> > an even worse Congressman.  His goal is a Socialist government that will
>> > control every aspect of our lives (and he's running it, of course).  Not
>> > exactly "open source" philosophy.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
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>> >
>> >
>> >
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>
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>
> "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
> oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that
> will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
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