Oranges to Wintels?

[JD Runyan]

Either you are on the wrong list or you are smoking something.  Are sure you
didn't mean to sign up for the KCMPG (KC Microsoft prevaricator Group)
On Sat, Mar ,  at 06:31:11PM -0600, Jonathan Hutchins wrote:
> 
> Come on, Tony, be real.  Maybe a System390 could do a full GUI Linux install
> in 5 minutes, but in the real world it takes 30-90 minutes, just like
> Windows.  With Windows, the OS install is pretty much done then, and there's
> not much to do except install the software.  Since it doesn't have a
> separate configuration tool for each widget, program, tool bar, etc. there's
> not much to set, and the defaults are 99% functional, unlike Linux.
I have installed a linux system in less than that, if I am not too picky.  You can
just have it install a set of defaults.  Normally I spend about the same time on each.
No Windows does not provide defaults any more usable than linux, unless of course you
personally like the defaults.  I have had to do far less customization to my linux
out of the box to make it "functional"  That doesn't mean I don't customize the hell out
of both
> With Linux, the software installs too, and then you have to tweak the
> network settings, and track down the version of the Xserver that will
> actually work with your card at something other than 640x480 or <hard
> reboot>, and you have to uninstall webconfig and linuxconf, and you have to
> try to figure out why you get this deafening sound when KDE loads, but can't
> play CD's or MP3's, and why Gnome says you don't have a sound mixer, and you
> have to track down the dependencies for rpmfind, and then spend a day
> finding and reading the HOWTOs for pump or dhcpcd or ipchains or ipadmin or
> whatever it is this release, and then you have to figure out which
> configuration tool locked all the ports except telnet and anonymous FTP, and
> then copy over all your custom scripts and tools...
I have no idea what hardware you are using, but I have done many installs of
many distributions, and have not had the problems you are desribing.  Some of
those installs have been on Alpha and Sparc hardware as well, and none of these
problems.  I didn't have to read any how toos to make anything work in the most
recent versions of Mandrake, and Red Hat. I have even made a point of using my
system at work, like any normal user would too see if it can be done.  I have
had no problems doing so using Mandrakes Software Manager to install
everything.  I have never had any sound or video trouble on new hardware from
Gateway, which is the type of machine your average user would have. 

> I've installed versions of RedHat from about 1.2 through 7.2, Mandrake for
> several versions through 8.1, Caldera, Turbo, and a couple others.  I have
> not tried suSe or DebIan.  I have found most of the GUI installers likely to
> run to lockup or install then crash on reboot with older hardware like
> Compaqs and IBM's from the late '90's.
I don't know what hardware you use, but I have had that problem but once, yet I
have had that happen in all versions of windows as well.  I have even installed
Red Hat on some of those late 90s Compaqs.  I'm sure you have had that problem,
but it is not unique to linux.  Any OS that runs on commodity hardware can have
these problems.  If I install any recent version of Windows on a late 90s PC I
could have the same problems.  There is always hardware that was released
pre-standards, that no longer works once a standard has been released and the
OS vendor has a new release.  You saw this with many of the USB devices released.
> It's great fun, but I wouldn't tell anybody I could have them a Linux box
> they could use without help in less than three days.  And if they want to
> change something, or install something, they'd better either be a programmer
> or a sysadmin, or they'll have to wait until I have a free day or two to set
> it up and work the bugs out for them.
> 
Most of my friends and family break thier windows box when they do more than
the mundane. They then call me.  If they had a Linux I could ask them to run
a couple of commands, and then I could log into thier box and take a look for
myself. I know terminal services can do something similiar, but it is slow and
clunky, and I would have a terminal server client installed.  I have ssh
telnet, and others out of the box in linux to support linux, and windows after
adding some third party products can be done this way, but not near as much can
be done
> Whereas I like my Windows machines to be box stock (I'll always have the
> tools I'm used to), and I can launch the install, go fix something, come
> back and launch the Office97 install, fix something else, install
> pcAnywhere, Notes, and the ticket tracking software and I'm off home with a
> portable system configured to manage a secure network, total time less than
> two hours.
Lets see in Mandrake at the end of the install I create an autoinstall floppy.
I stick it in the floppy boot.  15 minutes later I have the exact same
configuration. I installed the first time.  I add my private keys to my profile
or carry them on a floppy, change the IP Addressi and hostname, and I'm done.
> Workstations?  Norton Ghost, 30 minutes, change SID, join network, abandon
> on user's desktop, visit in six months with the next version of our internal
> software.  Spend the afternoon with a redhead and a thoroughbred hunt horse.

> Yes, we paid a lot more for the software, but we've already amortized it,
> and we don't have to keep a staff of professional programmers on hand to get
> it to load properly, and we could do that part of my job for a lot less per
> hour than we could pay a Linux admin to do it.
I don't have a problem with buying the software I want, like, or require, but
don't try to assign some value to it that is not there.  I use Oracle, DB2 and
other packages because they are good at what they do and are reliable.  I do
the same with AIX, Solaris, and HPUX.  I cannot get the availability I need on
commodity hardware, so Linux is not always my solution.  I would like to see
sound technical arguments for and against something.  You have provided some
colorful antidotes of your experience with kde sound and video, but I have not
found those issues in my experience.  I can do anything you do with setup and
installation in windows as quickly and easily in Linux.  That is a case of what
you know.  I have also seen as many hardware compatibility probles in windows
as linux, and have spent hours searching the MS Knowledge base, and the vendors
knowledge base, and google.  It is no different in this respect.  Any UNIX can
be supported by fewer more skilled administrators than windows.  In the server
arena we need about 1 Admin per 12-15 NT system (system defined as machines
running different applications, a cluster is a system here), yet one Unix admin
can manage 50+ systems.  Its not that unix admin is necessarily smarter (my
bias says they are), but they have better tools.
> 
-- 
JD Runyan
Mid-Range Systems Administrator
USDA NITC Kansas City