Wine, Whine, installs, aquariums and DOOR STOPS
lowell
lowell at kc.rr.com
Sat Nov 10 04:38:23 CST 2001
RE: Wine, Whine, installs, aquariums and DOOR STOPSrat own, Macaddict!
(p.s.:I hear 10.1 is MUCH better...)
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Palmer [mailto:repalmer at sunflower.org]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:15 PM
To: kclug at kclug.org
Subject: RE: Wine, Whine, installs, aquariums and DOOR STOPS
Steve,
I guess my 10 years of experience with about every mac made doesn't
count for much.
OS-9 emulation has not worked well in production for graphics arts apps
(the last bastion of macintosh), particularly anything that was not written
by the big three (adobe, quark, microsoft). I was hoping for a lot more
than it delivered. Maybe OS-XI...
That's not what you said...running graphics apps emulation... you said:
Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
or network it, or do any real work with it. OS-X is great as long
as you
don't try to use any Mac aps on it. I'm in the GA business, so I
know just a
teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
Which is of course gross hyperbole. I've been using, networking and
supporting pretty much all silicon forms for the last 20 years-including
VAX, VM, VMS where I started. I can tell you with a great deal of
experience which takes more of what.
If you're in the support biz you know that statistically Macs take 1
support person per hundred and PCs take about 4 per hundred. So when
someone tells me that Bubba in Pokamo once couldn't keep the Macs running I
know that Bubba was inadequate.
In fact, most PC guys that "have" to support Macs end up making more work
for themselves because--1. they have to in order to justify their job and--
2. they don't know what they are doing and winging it... making minor
problems more work. Many do it on purpose...you know that for sure if you
work in the support biz too.
Now running high end graphics is another story. Its a strain on any
machine. Windows has way more than its share of problems doing that stuff.
But the standard has been and remains Avid on the Macintosh. Moves to get
video editing people to change to Windows has been nearly universally
negative-or riotous might be a better word. Not because they just hate
Windows...because they hate more work to do less quality. Most mobile news
crews are converting to Sony cameras and iBooks now. The facts are just
not with this Mac-is-a-toy notion. But you perpetuate this urban myth and
someone is going to quote you. Macs are right in the middle of every job
that needs doing.
Another notion that gets my blood pressure up is the when people invoke
the Xerox Parc excuse for Microsofts theft. Apple paid for anything they
got from Xerox. They hired Xerox employees to help with technology that
Xerox was tossing on the scrap heap. The Parc computer didn't use a key
board and wasn't written in anything useful to production of the Mac.
Microsoft stole real code and used large parts of that very same unaltered
code to make the first Windows...Mac code was still lingering in Windows
98...I don't know about later versions. Its pretty disgusting to hear Gates
talk about intellectual property theft when he pulled the biggest theft of
the 20th century.
I'm the first to say that OS X is a little disappointing to me as a Mac OS
and I don't see how common folks will master it. But that's my criticism
of Windows and Unix... If any company can turn Unix into something regular
humans can use then it will be Apple. Bank on it.
And finally. If you care to look. Apple is doing better than any of the
PC vendors that a year ago were going to bury Apple. Still turning a
profit. Still being the most innovative.
The other stuff is a about a note I wrote sometime back which didn't show
up on the list for a couple months...then I had no time to deal with it when
it did.
rick
.
Rick,
Not sure I follow the sunflower post in the same email, but I must be
missing something...
sj
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Palmer [mailto:repalmer at sunflower.org]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 9:48 AM
To: Steve Johnson; 'kclug at kclug.org'
Subject: RE: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
Steve,
At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
or network it, or do any real work with it. OS-X is great as long
as you
don't try to use any Mac aps on it. I'm in the GA business, so I
know just a
teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
This isn't a flame...just a long standing observation. Don't want to
get into a Mac vs the world thing. But anyone that makes statements about
the Mac OS like that simply hasn't ever use it or been around it. You're
repeating an urban legend of the first order-created and maintained by
Microsoft.
Wine, Windows and other junk........
I routinely run Windows in emulation-under OS 9 emulation-under OS X
on a 350 MHz iMac/786 megs RAM. Runs about 200 MHz fast. :)
Scattered files.....
I think the beef with OS X for most Mac folks is exactly that
scattered file thing-Mac people are used to concrete places to put stuff
which can be thrown away in a snap if you don't like it-back to square one
no harm done. I've found that its easier to get a Mac user up to speed on
a PC because they have no fear of screwing things up when they should be
very afraid. Converting PC people to Macs is more difficult because
(formerly-OS 9) they were very afraid of screwing things up when they should
have been having fun. My guess is that Apple will be a dual OS company for
quite sometime. Maybe that's the way it should be.
Lastly and most important....
Revisiting community/public networking/wireless .
I do want to get back and discuss this seriously. I posted that
article nearly 2 months before it popped up on the list. Recently we've
been really busy and I haven't had a chance to respond. So in a nut shell:
Sunflower is a not for profit. Sunflower has a long term track record
of slugging it out with the corporate giants, improving/growing, and staying
in business. Someone wanted to know what Sunflower brought to the table.
Frankly, Sunflower is the "public network" table right now. All the rest is
pipe dream. If there is interest in shaping the direction etc then that
requires participation.
Sunflower is willing to finance things to whatever degree it can. I
don't mean to minimize the financial commitment- it will be large. Make no
bones about it though-its a boot strap thing...but that's good. That's why
it can work. That's why you and me can play. That's why the corporate
giants will hate us.
We've been in discussions for a year with a national satellite TV
provider that needs Internet at apartment complexes where they can't put up
dishes. That can provide a place to put broadcast stuff. We could close
that deal if we had the manpower to actually get it done.
Nothing should be on the slide. We can't build it unless its all
legal. The big guys will shut us down if it isn't.
I think those were the important points.
All our effort right now is going towards becoming the first national
not for profit ISP. We want to claim the title of NPR or PBS of computing.
That brings money and power to negotiate. The national network is hot and
we're on the financial clock tweaking the back end systems so we're swamped
messing with those pesky hidden files. :) We will use the national network
to build out these wireless systems where ever there is interest. Interest
being defined as people who take the initiative trying to get things done.
:)
end caffeine rant,
rick
At 9:07 PM -0600 11/8/01, Steve Johnson wrote:
Nope, your not offensive, just omnipotent and pontificative.
Yes Mac OS is great as long as you don't attempt to run any real
applications,
or network it, or do any real work with it. OS-X is great as long
as you
don't try to use any Mac aps on it. I'm in the GA business, so I
know just a
teensy bit about what I say on this subject....
I do agree with your philosophy with learning, except I try to learn
10 new
things a day.
sj
>===== Original Message From D. Hageman <SMTP:dhageman at dracken.com>
=====
>On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Unfortunately, I have to deal with MAC OS too much already thank
you.
>
>Mac OS is a great operating system and I think that the new
releases have
>a lot of potential. Shoot almost every GUI shell since then has
tried to
>replicate it to some degree or another.
>
>> It must be great to know everything.
>
>Well, I don't know everything yet, but I work closer to that goal
every
>day. Some people say I won't ever reach that goal, but oh well -
you
>gotta try right? I get the impression that you found some of my
comments
>offensive - please look at placement of the smileys to assist you
in
>interperting my comments. As for the rest of my reply - their is
good
>information in there. I find it a wasted day when I don't learn
>something. :-)
>
>
>>
>> sj
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: D. Hageman [mailto:dhageman at dracken.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:27 PM
>> To: Steev Johnson
>> Cc: kclug at kclug.org
>> Subject: Re: Wine, Whine, installs, and the like
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Steev Johnson wrote:
>>
>> > I saw the posts on WINE and I thought about the fact that the
only way
>>
>> > I can bear installing software on Linux is to drink some wine
first.
>> > Now
>>
>> Well, if that is what you have to do then that is what you have
to do.
>> I
>> recommend that if you think that you are becomming an alcoholic
you
>> switch
>> to Mac OS. :-)
>>
>> > Well, so does Linux.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Depends on the distrobution you run and what the philosphy is.
If you
>> get
>> a BSD style distro you will find that you have neat little
directories
>> for
>> most major pieces of software with the binaries soft linked back
into
>> your
>> path. RPM/DEB based distros do spread files around, but if you
know how
>>
>> to use your package tool you can find the files very easily.
>>
>> rpm -ql <package>
>>
>>
>> > Let's take for example the MYSQL package as implemented under
Trustix,
>>
>> > or any other distribution for that matter. None of the RPMS
really
>> > WORK to get it installed, there is still tons of Mickey mouse
to make
>> > it work
>> > - if it ever does.
>>
>> Well, sounds like you need to write the maintainers of the RPM
and let
>> them know that their RPMs are broken.
>>
>> > trying to figure out why safe_mysqld hangs. What every
happened to
>> the
>> > glorious days of DOS when everything was in the same %$&!
directory!?
>> > What was wrong with that?
>>
>> Nothing, see above.
>>
>> >
>> > Yes, I understand the shared data and the centralized config
>> > can/should be somewhere else, but this is just a mess! Whether
it
>> > gets installed under /usr/bin or /usr/shared or usr/local or
whatever
>> > seems to depend on how someone was feeling that day. Much like
>> > windows. At least with windows, I KNOW there are only a couple
places
>>
>> > other than the app directory that they are going to dump DLLs
and the
>> > like.
>>
>> And why ... because you have run Windows for so long. It is
called
>> experience.
>>
>> > cobol. If I can't figure this stuff out easily, how is the
average
>> > sysop ever going to be able to deal with this?
>>
>> No matter how I answer this question it will be bad. I will pass
;-)
>>
>> Have fun!
>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>//========================================================\
>|| D. Hageman <dhageman at dracken.com> ||
>\========================================================//
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